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frank and i are extremely pleased tohave a good and long-time friends actually i'm back back with us today arteriovenous jack was active in our show fromnineteen seventy eight the nineteen eighty-one and senseleaving austin in new york city he's worked as a journalist writing forvarious newspapers and magazines he's worked as a right sure and most recently have been working in adrug treatment store center in new york city

but i wouldn't have talked with jack onthe problems of drugs in society talking about some of his experiences asa drug counselor and some of his analysis and perspectives on theproblems of drugs and society so jack welcome back from trenton was great thatyou know it's nice to get back i have been watching their you're showingalternatives up in new york city on the cuny station song four times a week up there very going in there i've been watching you guys age if hiscard without the u_s_ out and uh... sake

well i i guess it's not ravages of time and haagen-dazs speaking a rabbit as you know we gotthis big warren drugs just got to be a war on something or other going on so you are so to speak as a drug houseor new york city or in the trenches so can you say something transient aboutthe war on drugs well actually govern i'm not really in the trenches arebecoming the mesh unit well

uh... more um... more than a footsoldier ameritech and um... or other use of the first thing to startout with his i think we need to eighty-six this idea of the who are on drugs i think it's part of that that we have conceding the problem ispart of the problem rather than the solution as a military type of a military leveltroops against at the white but out

there on twenty twenty one in a in a waryou look to defeat the enemy first what we have to analyze what is the enemy i think that you know bonilla pulled should trained as a political scientisti remember that george orwell wrote a great essay innineteen forty eight i think that group politics a little bit id he cautioned be mindful of the language did you usebecause it shapes how do you think about

social problems and i think it reaching for if there's something about the weremetaphor that reveal something about the american character it it says that you know the for our first instinct isto reach for the good mhm and i'd think we need isunderstanding in this problem

i think we need to be looking at not the tactics of how to win the war but one of the underlying assumptions ofthis war and aren't i think that we don't getthat much of it in the press writing for the most part we get justdiscussions of tactics and not really one of the basicassumptions behind this effort at such a complex subject you haveeverything from jockey on the street to the pressures to that big uh... like

cocaine cartels down and columbia to the c_i_a_ involved in drugs wereright on up through the uh... white house administrating some of this and also the use of the drug war two try to curtail civil liberties uh... there the medical aspects that itself complex where do you start tryingto get a handle on this drug problem i think one of the first things you dois to understand it

from my perspective as somebody whoworks in the field um... we don't see it as the drug problem we see is the drug symptom uh... when someone comes to us in as asocial worker you do the first time you see when you do is very in-depth intake where you getthere history their life history you do that because you

implicitly understand that people don't use drugs accidentally they use it 'cause it makes sense within the contextof their lives and so i think what we need to do islook about look look what we do with addicts what we're doing a twelve-step edwin inalcoholics anonymous narcotics anonymous would you do is usd taking one of thestatue has to take personal inventory and to write down your character defects

well we has a society being need need totake that same inventory into right down or defects what is it about our culture about our economic political and socialinstitutions which are generating such widespread drug involvement well jack let's begin with that carpetcleaner experiences account so that is a informed the drive the people to drugs do you doit well it's it's really complicated it's extremely complicated

let me first of all say that it's not really a it's it's it's it'ssort of provocative to say the drug use drugs are a problem but they're the sametime there's really no consensus about what what this disputes a symptom of whatright let's take for instance conservativesconservatives think its descent into they think it's a symptom of decline ofpersonal responsibility of morals of basic permissiveness argue are drug czar william bennett isis uh... one of his favorite targets is

the nineteen sixties as a pile ofpermissiveness you'll say well this is what happens you get drugs when you youhave a society says if it feels good do it over to your own thing and uh... any sense that basically swedenqualified to present a problem can be traced back to the sixties william bennett is a smart guy he's got a p_h_d_ right here from you toa higher authority for us to depart right in a federal law degree fromharvard

but he really ought to be a betterstudent of history because that the actual wants of uh... it we set our own country gofarther back than the nineteen sixties in fact we can trace it back to theeighteen sixties the first annex in the united states symbol war veterans many of whom were wrapped with battlefield means remember medicine isextremely creative time you get a

gunshot wound rapport if your arm andleg a lot of these fellows we're just inextreme agony it when the war was over well hypodermic needle had been inventedin eighteen fifty seven they found out that you take a littlemorphine in strange into hypodermic and you've got some relief so the firstaddicts in fact were more phoenix civil but shouldn't stop there in fact when we talk about cocaine todayin the cocaine epidemic by the way i i really don't use termslike epidemic i really think that

that uh... in many ways the idea of the drugs beingcontagious it also gives the feel that you know people is somehow tainted so i i usually shy away from the for thefirst the first time the drugs appear cocaineappeared on the scene was in fact in the eighteen eighties in united states coca-cola the active ingredient coca-cola

off from eighteen eighty six to nineteenoh five let's go kate uh... twelve freud thought i was going to be the solutionof mankind's problem absolutely there's no doubt about that nature was their cocaine addict inpreparing look ok worst anyway everywhere we can legally was in every one of thepatent medicine semua door-to-door salesmen would come around uh... in fact uh... there was only

there was a uh... uh... syrup that wasgiven to you to t_v_ infants that had in fact hoping that it at thetime and it was uh... whose car that wascalled missus one sins or something seem soothing syrup nausea put that on thegrounds of the of the infant and yes it would certainly stop cryingbecause it would be in oblivion and uh... outlook and the ferrisdeveloping a new found cocaine he had marijuana use remember mostpeople are aware of the united states

was the last semester in country westerneurope uh... to enact it narcotics laws thatwas in nineteen fourteen and we had the add ironic situation in nineteentwenties were alcohol was illegal everybody water was legal well right now if there was suchwidespread availability and use of all these potent drugs during apply wasn't thewhole country uh... bladder delegates mind and all these andhaving all these problems that we have today well at actually if you read ifyou read the text of the times you read

if you read books and accounts of thetimes it was really serious problem in factuh... david must allow a psychiatrist historian at yale as documented in abovecolby american disease worry traces the history anti-war real serious problems was not or limited to just it was that there was a history of of uh... of uh... uh... of of of black workers being given cocaineby the abortions in order to do to get

didn't work out of them you also had very odd you know um... the even the high society i don't meanthat is upon uh... in places like new york city insan francisco after a night on the ten would read we treat our opium dens in the in thechinatown sections of new york in in san francisco as did the writers andthe uh... bohemian exactly exactly other seven percent belvoir sincerest problemsthat would generate in that and and at

the time when it was understood wasthere was a retrieved from it was a retreat from drug use um... pleasure i want a lot about uh... nowwe've had uh... alcohol use sammy centuries millennia there you go backand show the bible or other uh... old ancient publications and they talk about people get brock so we've had had these uh... psychoactive uh...

uh... drugs whether illegal or legal their sense mankind has been uh... doton the design doubt about that in fact the parent they've done on proposedastounded and uh... archaeologists have found emitting in egypt papyrus scrolls that talked about thefirst breweries in in in shimoga being thirty five hundred b_c_ before that in

ancient samaria they use to use opium which the word they used to or be movedjoy military or civilian mysteries hadreligious calls they use drugs has been many traditionalsocieties and all over the world up till this day yes so it's it's a problem what uh... yeah i think that's ameasure of any society said abroad in the nineteen sixties as william bennett doesn't just absurdshows

total historical multi albert bellbattered order no better i'll tell you why your daughter sherry does he just apropaganda sir right wing and a lot like all the other ideas skies agenda he'she's looking at he's got his own agenda that he'spushing but he ought to know better because brook bill bennett and i were born the sameplace let's pick a new york right and bill bennett and bill bennett knows that there was adrug problem growing up in the nineteen forties nineteen fifties in brooklyn newyork

and that drugs boris alcohol why i grew up in the beirut section ofbrooklyn there were four bars on every block inthird avenue fifth etc and they were churches are four fitting and the women went to the church's topray that the men wouldn't drink pan and then went to the cars in the women'sanswer prayers whenever yasser so there was a drug problem it wascalled alcohol and it was legal and it was socially acceptable and the churcheswere certain churches were serving one to go with a little wafers

for that during this each other carriersthe so-called drug or alcohol problem didn't really surface intermediatesanction there in september of this year therewas something like two hundred and sixty media stories on drugs a lot on network television and the new york times quiet wassaddened brokers on the drug problem but there's there's signify thatsuddenly

drugs as a number one problem bush makes a speech talking about the clan a war on drugsbennett's going all over the country talking about drugs wine al so i thinkthat there you know i i i'm not gonna pooh-poohingthe idea that there are fifty people don't use drugs thing that they are not destructive consequences it did for themusing drugs i think that um... since sensed uh... people

reagan came into office drugs have beenuh... uh... are convenient whipping post i think that there's an ideologicalagenda here push new i think that in many ways uh... drug served as a a diversion from looking at other social problems i mean as i said before people don't use drugs accidentally

if you look at their history the people that come to see me often are coming from life situations which unbearable i deal with probably ninety percent ofthe client's i've seen my work are uh... or minority women who've been referred from that childwelfare agency in new york city

because they have been reports areallegations that there you go use drugs and that in less than a agree to go totreatment or at least submit to evaluation by me or people like me theirchildren to be taken away and when you do the intake assessment when you do theirpersonal history sometimes i look at them and i would idon't have a need wonder why they use drugs work what aresome of the common doctors the drive people into drugs thatyou've experienced obviously poverty as one

you're talking about people who were you talk about women who i have uh... bythe time there twenty to twenty three years old three or four kids b didn't buy three or four different men who are who are themselves children aregrown are broken homes there were no likelihood they were uh...physically often sexually abused uh... certainly emotionally neglected and abandoned

poverty poverty is the key are you just race i would imagine that always keepspeople from getting jobs and well actually it is nodoubt about it i mean these are people who thought a lot of opportunities infront of them when you find yourself in rituals withkids when you have any welfare hotel if you're pretty trapped

and i guess to buy dubbed by some youknow some some sort of temporary relief drugs can do that group brings no mistaking drugs deliver in theshort term drugs are very powerful their their pain relieving they give people a sense of mastery togive people a sense of confidence give people a sense of power they're highly pleasurable they have long-term negativeconsequences but if you have to be really living inthe immediate

if the flies doesn't look well they were all down the road can you blame them jack before we get into some of thelong-term negative consequences of drugs and what you've experienced in this regard can we talk a little bit about how drugsare also symptomatic of american tendency to find solutions to problemsthrough commodities and other words the drugs we read about on televisioncocaine ka caroline et cetera are

similar in some ways the bali and totranquilizers sleeping pills osbourne by a number of other drawings that are usedin this society simply to relieve pain pure and to give relief that are uh... legal sosa tendency in this society thatadvertise in the media and just the culture in general reinforces that if you want to solveyour problems you take a drug is a commodity solution why you know to what extent i can add tothat that's uh... it was not a question

not i'd like to think about that somedaythere that people don't see anything wrong with this because of part of the culture i was iwould say this that and no less then one of the fathers of our country the fellowwho pay the phrase the pursuit of happiness as thomas jefferson you also pandit thatthe part of life is the avoidance of pain movement and and in fact i don't think we shouldbe only talk about where anti-drug into war on drugs

i think first portion understand thedrugs that would but i have a beneficial role to play in society in our lives that's made our livesforced a bit longer liberalizing healthier wouldn't armed force would not be alive todaywithout penicillin and antibiotics is new and and and aspirin and various other even more

lap or drugs have kept a slight unseenemergency situations or salazar that's important to keep inmind a draw appears eddie any substance which is cycle activeah... which is uh... can change my router body but so what happens is and ithink in a society that it gets society vincent's distress wouldn't society has lots of problems appear on where we are solutions don'tappear on the horizon it's very tempting

to look to substances there just a small away from eating so late but uh... there it's more than just a set of people inthe media and name well we've been focusing on now is theto the poor people live in the ghettos who were trapped in there emotional pain and helplessness their articles about the the wheelersand dealers on wall street using cocaine

there are plenty of alcoholics who makeah... gooden good living uh... now and uh... as we've seen that the homosapiens been doing this at all classes for for a multimedia so wat is clear that well i went by i wouldn't but there's afellow researcher and you from u_c_l_a_ near ron siegel who's just written abook well intoxication

of the search for artificial paradisewhere his thesis is he first looks at the animal kingdom and then traded and traces it laterintelligent human beings this this thesis is that its debt thedesire for intoxication the changing consciousness is in fact it built into the species and uh... and as a drug kelso that's nota popular position solid but i mean that's a bit all i can say is that in your point

listen tunic anti-cancer drug problemsdavid kennedy killed himself from an overdose of i believe cocaine robert kennedy waswhen he was on the staff of robert morgenthau came up in the prosecutor'soffice in in in newburgh new york was in fact uh... arrested for possession of heroin met john belushi know you have uh...baseball stars you have athletes you have a

movie stars he had kitty dukakis drinking rubbingalcohol because there was no blues left in the house actually obviously it's notjust the function people's intake of of drugs not just the function of ofpoverty there all the stresses of life i mean they're stresses the stay at thetop you talk about wall street i havefriends of mine who work on wall street nobody gives page one hundred fiftythousand dollars a year unless she won't step over dead bodiesin our culture tickets high stress it's it's fast lane

it's very competitive it's a world would you never show youweaknesses to anyone it's a world of rugged individualistsgrueling predatory bruin predatory instincts that's not bad that takes pothole on the spiritual and emotional healthand human being and that's no wonder i mean todaythey're using cocaine but historically wall street was always a place wherepeople got wasted after work on alcohol

now generally mix the two you know youtake out the check the cocaine during the day to find the energy the relevant to deal with the fatigueissues demand that they have to really get to wired up and we see that you havea few drinks in order to float back down back down to earth shetlands that's focused on thisquestion of uh... drug abuse granted that all societies in history of how cooper all drugs andother things to relieve pain to help

people cope with stress and differentuh... on problems and that's also a lot of drugs are useful three human uh...being when constitutes drug abuse and thenlet's get into some of the destructive effect of drugs as you see them okay we are as a as a person who works in thein the in the into helping profession rather than ah... uh... the police professional with thepolice law enforcement take the view that any use constitutes a bugle

we don't lock would help we take the view that we look at thecontext of a person's life in sync touro when when act up and they'll seedevelops the universe has negative life consequences then it becomes abuse in our mind sothat means we'll be looking at a person's um... emotional health

their physical health their financial health how they're getting along with theirfamilies uh... going to work off their money that's that's essentially distinctionbetween used to produce but also sightings as you say people ofuse drugs visit there's a h it there is a markedlydifferent affect that cocaine has on a peruvianpeasant

who takes the coca leaf then begins tochew it first of all of its spread throughoutthe whole body and you end up getting about five percent of the potency of thedrug it's longer acting it has a way of wanting to curtail stronger which is ofcourse important in countries third world countries wherepeople are starving or or malnourished in as a way to help the work and thenyou have to work brutally long hours but in our country with the moderntechnology available on the processing all the drug when you slot cocaine you go from fivepercent that there will be present at

the eighty five percent of purity even better here if your idea is to getwasted isn't is not right of free basing cocainewhich is smoking it or crack for when you getting ninety eight percent of thepuri within five seconds our viewer ingestion goes right through the brain will and activates the pleasure centers ofthe brain

and gives you a power packed twelve minutes where you are all in malformed which in terms of pleasure problem is around the thirteen fourteen fifteenminute and getting worse he stopped a few withdrawal symptoms that might be irritability

my pizza onset of depression cravings even paranoia and what do you do well most people aregetting out of five bucks a rape rocks intake another hit and so then they're on the cycle in there on the site of dependency andhere's where becomes destructive for people's lives extremely december's somescenarios of lie has been destroyed or

some other processes through which people are literally destroyed because of drugdependency i mean i don't know where to start my mymark mark mike my clients are are people who uh... who stories just just our own heartbreaking you know you have uh... the young woman who came to me

rulers nineteen years old indonesian middle-class white women her fault usually child or farther andfarther had passed away for heart attack when she was fourteen die from cancer long cancer when she wasseventeen she was left the house she sold the house for holding twentyfive thousand dollars and her boyfriend in the space of lessthan a year or two hundred five thousand

dollars a cocaine when she came to to me for help i had to give five dollars takecare backhome was even more dramatic i was told me last night we completelylet the audience that we're talking last night in this story struck you guys was the time that uh... a mini wife cameto

came for help he was barefoot and she was wearing his a floppy shoes and i said or story here why why don't you haveshoes while you were issues of suit well on the way over here wasn't she sold her

her shoes for ten dollars so we could both getting hit a crack balcony that he speaks of desperationdidn't that uh... really tells a story about when the lawyers cross between use andabuse and reacts to resolve of people people selling their babies pampers and doctors

for for for money for drugs uh... because other people in the crimewith clinton i i mean i'll give you another was able to give you an exampleor a woman who work here who have been a while but welfare hotel i mean this really told tells you tosort of a in june in june you have uh... of some of them iron drug dealers welfare approving the new york citywelfare you get a check once oneself

once a month and do you have to go to well uh... office to get it so during the month what would happen isif a if a drug dealer a welfare hotel there was a woman has is getting publicassistance caretaker card include the card and he will give her drugs on credit on credit and when they come back

when the time comes they both will grow at the turn of themonth they were both go to the welfare welfareoffice to get the check she will be immediately turn over the money to him and of course would have charged her dogwill because you're paying double like on the other on credit that's just out by sampling we could goon for hours talking about the stories

the horror stories baseball's hall livesthan are involved in getting money for drugs using drugs and then the aftermath ofdown dealing with the same cycle of anxietydepression its rocket is baseless as a full-time job being at that full-time job that's where destroys youlike to do it was a complete lodgement single-minded obsession unkind tolooking at somebody who gets up in the morning if you're heroin addict you get up in the morning

and within a very few hours you'restarting to get cold chills sweats diarrhea and vomiting you've got to find some way to get thedole so first things you can find some way to get money if you're lucky to ho kal critical whereare you going to do to get it then you can find something to cop doorfrom and i hope it is good stuff we're notgiving you some some garbage the cart then we gotta find assume about areclean set works because if you don't get a crusader works today you'll get aidsin the bargain my works you mean

hypodermic syringe mechanics syringecoker cotton settler you know you get the whole the holesdole works then you find a place the to be sure todial which on the street looking for all thatand then you get a couple hours of nirvana right and then we begin the cycle over again that's a full-time job an expensive i want to say what is thecost and i think a day for heroine or

crack car well let's take a when there are peoplewho survive on pompons fifty dollars a day heroic for the people use two one two thousandthey were heroin butt crack at five p eight to ten dollars a popunder people go on what is called in uh... in uh... in uh... in a subculture that i work withdiscrimination uh... mission here they'll say i guessis like george bush said ice it's

beacuse my mission remember he said thaton his always well iguana mission where sensual ebay a they just leave all they go to the crack house and they don't come up for air for twoor three days and they'll go through six hundred twothousand dollars in debt two or three days now yes where they get the money

anywhere any anyway anyway they can for women often the bargain is six betrayedbetrayed sex for drugs in the bargain though they get more than just the highfrom the drug many of the men who frequent the crackhouses in addition to smoking cocaine also or intravenous drug users very popular today

he's the shoot cocaine and herointogether scoffs people twice that well you see dot understand something about thepharmacology of the drug inspect on the body cocaine will his estimate when i'm verypowerful stimulant and it will it excites the part of thebrain very much of the pleasure center of thebrain

and you'll get very very high problem is with the height you get thehardier fall and what they discovered is by puttingheroin ends in a hypodermic to the sandwich they discovered that once you get way high up in a sort of cod released way the heroine begins the kicking in rightafter

so you don't suffer which will affect you sort of parachute down to her in the into pillows other nice heroin so that at the speed dialing the cocaineand heroin gold go together wonderfully for a lot ofthese fellas that used to drugs that way two women come in thinking that liza guys don't use i_v_drugs

independent sex with them indo go back to their partners many ofwhom were unaware that they're using log on to the crack house they transmitted to their sexualpartners they had babies they have aids and the babies will love to seekindergarten to what extent is this one of the mainproblems in the drug culture letters and specialty do you see much of this is this reallyformal tremendous ok tremendously everyday community should be

absolutely applauded for what they'vedone they have really cut it down to his verbalvirtually zero increase in the gay community yes you see people getting aids butthese are people who were exposed to the virus long before the publicity that there was a connection betweenunsafe sex practices and and the h_i_v_ amongst the the intravenous drug use inthe rose to drug culture there was almost

no talking to them uh... we have to get tempted to the newyork new york city board of health certain people a wait out into theintravenous drug abuse in community attempting to to get them to useprotected sex if they're going to have sex and it's virtually impossible after remember these people uh... these people don't they'll have a warm horizons they'llthink of life in terms of along horizon

so up in a very resigned to defeat tothe idea that life is going to be very short for them so to talk to them about safe sex andabout not getting aids and not giving a set of people they've been a very difficult communityto rage and that's why you see such an explosionof aids in the intravenous drug user community essentially that has been the bridgethan heterosexual community because it's true the i_d_ drug users

and their partners that it gets biggerheterosexual population weather just fatalistic the fact thatuh... i mean they all should know by now that if they share needles or libelulaget aids and yet they continue to do it they just uh... unlike you say this isthe short term outlook and they say oh well but i think it would be in thecommunity while you are exposed i think they basically take the view of theactor you know i've been shooting drugs uh...fraph for a four or five years of six years orthree years of two years

and um... i would have been exposed it's also one of my good worry aboutthat you know this biz this b horse is already gone out born here so victor they don't have any way they basically ithink they're thirty day review their view is that i might as well enjoy whatlittle life of got left there are two drugs which cause moredeaths than any of the illegal drugs and those are the legaldrugs of uh... uh... cigarettes and

tobacco products and alcohol can you give us an idea of the comparison of those two of the beverly illegaldrugs as far as uh... yeah that suit you know that that's really interestingwe're not going to high school i got talking high schools quite a bit andum... as spend more of our trip questions as i said what are the most populardrugs in the world of course

that used to hearing about cocaine in and marijuana pcp angel personnel asdeep and inherently like unless they're usually their answersthem by surprise right on the three most popular drugs in the world alcohol nicotine a caffeine they're very surprised personally don'tthink opposes drugs after all drugs are bad

and water if their drugs when we do andselling them but you're right frank i think you'requestioning sat we have a blind spot when it comes tomake it to you now called the sculpture uh... i'm paul so people are also verysurprised considering the attention is put onillegal drugs and how devastating and deadly they all are when they find out the statistics anywhere there's anywhere between fourhundred and four hundred fifty thousand people die every year

from alcohol nicotine related disease you know cancer heart disease and histeam in the like but two years ago the statistics were totally less than sixty eight hundred peopledied totally from direct effects overwhelming illegal drugs in unitedstates combined so that means that more people die in one week

from alcohol nicotine related diseasesin one year all the other illegal drugs combined so one might ask why is it that we have this doublestandard i think you have to look at but not only the politics we have tolook at the economics here to looking at it mel t-ball team billion dollarindustries of of cigarettes and alcohol

with the great political life influx handles media influence mediumglamorizes the usf of tobacco alcohol itself parts and socialize isn't on our sins inthe news programs other drugs is so this is obviously a part of the source of thedouble standard neglected that this i'm not taking this drug council veryglad that we we do that when i was and we do point the finger at nicotinealkyl uh... i'm just uh... you know i thinkit's extremely important are very dangerous i think we are as a society

getting away from glamorizing cigarettesand you can see it today or the you're going to restaurants there's nosmoking sections were playing you can't smoke i do applaud these tuesday's but thefact that matters is that we should understand partly or problem of focusing in onillegal drugs is that we forget that in walking what are your novel all of us

body into the drug culture i think it i'd say it sometimes wheni'll be talking to groups now we have a society it's basically are an addict addicts are us with you but of all of its only by basicallysingling alcan isolating illegal drug users that we've we don't understand

how much and we have in common they havein common with the rest of us s somebody who drinks four five cups aday of coffee how they feel the morning if they don'tget their cup of coffee and we're going to pull off at somebody's trying to give up smokingdifficulties to give up smoking those people are addicted mark twain's famous line was resisted you'd rather do it

gatlinburg tried giving up smoking he said yesthousands of talking to her husband well they former attorney at lawattorney general surgeon general said that that is the most addictiveuh... substance very very powerful very para powerful drug with the kidneycontinue on my point it isn't just the problem addiction isnot just those things which we can just into our body a lot of people are now beginning to seeaddictions in a much broader context are beginning to see

we're not only society that is drinking and driving ourselves todeath but it's also a society that gambles i'm guessing listen we couldn't just goto eighty eight tonight what they need to know i don't know comics anonymous ofcocaine anonymous we could go to get wasn't honest female actually if you have peoplebefore you who are gambling we asked them why they gamble the real gamble will tell you unbearablefor the money idea before the action

boys get loose a agents napa iacocca's that was a compulsivegambler i was once a guy that at twenty one years of age i'd come out of a card game f_d_r_ bluewith a bunch of no-fat building cigar smoking bad breath guys untileleven o'clock in the morning in a beautiful spring day playing cardsalthough i don't know what i'd say when's the next game

he had a complete cook it's a hooks intome idea because i love the juice i would love that feeling of exhilaration in power values to play in gambling it was wonderful because i always feel a sense of mastery one-on-one but alwayshad the ability to say i had bad luck when i lost so was a kind of convenient out but ilove gambling gambling scandals in italy it was very much addiction

and it was interdiction would suit myneeds for excitement i'm ideas from my own profile i meanexcitement junkie you're a lot of people exile island fries fill the hole in my life here this is what needs to let that onein society drives people to gambling to addiction the drought style called a little bitdifferent the fruits of programming and so it's still the other server doubtabout it elicit something lacking in society isan emptiness alcohol

in society referred to as i said topeople sometimes i say to people listen the next time you go to the refrigeratorlate at night i want you to how will you take inventory are you going because you're hungry or or used are you looking for some thebecause your mhm angry lonely or tired a lot of people are not looking to feeda hungry stomachs wahan bahar looks a lot of people aboard in their everything they're lonely tirein your stressed out there fatigue

and we look for comfort and consolationrefrigerator how many of us have and fell better idon't like icon roy sometimes dealing with theseacts all day long and i have to walk past the pizza place actually i found out i don't have tolook past it now and that's why i'm not going to the pizza place wedding carlton b like jack carl unlimited you feel better but you know for a while it does make mefeel better

so i was opting for working people offerphone people off for gambling they were also a society that berlin addiction if people alwaysapplaud and that's workaholics call somebody and there are severalpopular but think again about op-ed piece of theprice factor the matter is people who work inthemselves to death people gambling people overeating less that phrase shop you drop

when the going gets tough tough goshopping how do you think that's about it's about your point up so now we aretrying to fill up we are sasakawa society we've taken distraction to a high or now will be trying to distract ourselvesfrom i think drugs in these addictionsfulfill legitimate needs of our society which our society frustrates i think we have a mean

four commuting which in a veryindividualistic azeri every man for himself dog-eat-dogaraceli society is not fulfilled i think we have a needfor community i think we have a need to have a senseof belonging many of us don't come from familieswhere we had a chance the belong videos rossello deeply wounded from whathappened to us or fairly settings it's a horrible whoever story so no one's a story about

dysfunctional families i mean i was out i'm a radical i grew up went to college i've ever heard about adysfunctional family but look at a dysfunctional family i thought was an alcoholic where does that mean was he assembledthem barry bonds absolutely not he took care of business

in fact many drink he was a sort of happy-go-lucky guy problem is when you call them on arolling into the drunk he mused about his explosive andunpredictable as you could ever get inist children i can remember like whenyou come through the door we all stand like mice because you had no idea what what was good face you so i grew up in a very chaoticenvironment a very unpredictable while

at the very very explosive moment where there was a lot of physical abusethere was a lot of yelling and screaming and arguing in fact i like to tell people when i getto talking about this sort of thing it's not pleasurable but there were two emotions in my house

there was really hard anger and ice-cold attachment coldness in fact i can remember still dream all those on the oldest of five childrento remember all of us retreating into the television set to watch eyes bosnianharriet leave it to be renewed donna reed show in thinking how come our family is not like this howcome

dad doesn't act like this and how comeon the same like this and i thought with the clintons childrenuse all of our own ruble that you think something's wrong with me why doesn't that love me you know the way you know aussie love stephen ricky it was uh... the police cars at this point mylife forty years of age

i have no rancor bitterness towards my dad my dad himself is the child of to alcoholics both of mygrandparents' rockwall x he had been physically abused as a child he only passed on what you know we've always known that alcoholism anddrug abuse run in families it certainly is taking a devastatingtoll on my family i said on the oldest of five children

one of my brothers growing up in that kind of of theenvironment were all of the emotional baggage it it isn't beingessentially a of victim of almost wartime conditions when we talk about battered children toreally talk about the same syndrome as vietnam veteranspost-traumatic stress disorder it's uh... it could lead you a sense ofemptiness that leaves you always tense europe you always feeling inside the

there's always feelings of failure thisextreme feelings of low self esteem well to get that one of my brothers first got into marijuana and later atseventeen graham sixteen herself into heroin who's a heroin addict for eleven years as was his wife removed uh... there lived a horror story of anexistence today are told that they had twochildren their children were taken away

the one st parent student they were very he lived in the streets after a while even families are supportive basically have to cut you lose because the colon everybody down and weknow when they steal the furniture for the third time would come home to find out sandy we know in a row

when we do everything they can defeattheir habits eventually have to cut them loose my brother that life and his wife live alife for eleven years came home one day and said i wanted toknow what i'm gonna get myself in a methadone program methadone in one of them six months wasvery hard on his liver yet had hepatitis you get out the types of course beforeyou can get aids used to get appetizers sharing dirtyneedles looked like it so much worse m_g_m_

he got a method i mean it was bent onhis liberty starts picking up lets you got off in about six months ago becausehe got out of the neighborhood through the neighborhood influences were more difficult some of the south jersey his wife of thesouth jersey raising their kids they bought a house together kids and i think it's back inthe white house today when we were together they beat the habit my brotherwas drug-free for five years he was healthy

six foot two hundred and eighty fivepounds a beautiful man he was talking about early retirement and i are raisingthe sixty thousand dollars is a copy of the last year of his life the story i have to tell us he comeshome one day from work he says uh... i don't have time to golive into into a seat so he went to bed thinking you'd bebetter the next morning he got up to me he didn't need to come to a hospitalbeaded skin on his brain they found we had five tumors are hisbrain

it took a specimen of one of the tumorshe had a lesions in on the brain in the specimen showed he had aids toxoplasmosis which is the neurologicaldisorder that you sometimes get when you have aids so finally showed up after allthose years after five years of being drug-free had been a sitting silently incubating like a time bombticking away in the system and i watch my beautiful brother hispainful to me to talk about it he was six to one hundred eighty fivepounds a ten-month siege with the raise seventyfive thousand dot

and his wife welcome she's still alive she's alive uh... she is inside the positive shesays full-blown symptoms but our understanding of the disease nowfrank is a lot is a lot better and she's been being kept alive witha_z_t_ new number of other drugs sitter it keep it alive but uh... she's lost alot of weight and she's a courageous gal good mother to the kids

but what about your other siblings hesaid well management it's not where they are waiting to hear slater farewell i'dsay they were that is adversely affected you get i had another brother i say had because uh... the store that my family album is in black voters alm i love the brotherhood

presented very differently you canpresent themselves american success story often happens when you come fromdysfunctional troubled families you're driven to succeed bilbao and i in many ways that convinceother people that you wrote something and to deal with your own feelings ofself worth and a failure when he was driven to succeed he wasvery good he went to an early catholic high school in staten island new york and i went to here anyway do you playfootball when awaiting to your university liquid from some footballthere

he came back he took the family businessthat was making a million dollars a year in may two to three million dollar yourbusiness your dad's your dad's will dad'sbusiness took a different million dollars a year he got a brand new bmw he i don't our new house he spent more on clothes in one monthand you and i would spend in five years final because i want so american expressbefore one month seven thousand dollars just close

and spend that much maligned uh... who are good for you tonight so he he met with my brother wasn'tuh... what what sobibor called massive cover up to deal with this test these feelingsinside a flow self-worth he wanted to do is best that convinceother people it was a success and on the outside he looks like anextreme success but on the inside he was a who was at scheduling angry depressedhelpless

ten-year-old worried about whether his father wasgoing to be done he never dealt with that emotionalbaggage you never had gotten to the bottom ofthat stuff and he has to run he just like to take the press release them what to doexciting things that he and i had that she had that characteristic wereexcitement junkies right heat he made me look like a pica

i mean i gained more than i did a fewthings but he really was we're talking major league he would uh... skydiving led to japan airplanes heat-driven motorcycles eighteen ninetymiles an hour he'd limbo and i mean give a big-timeonce watched him remember now it's a three million dollar business so you canafford to do this at least a while he wins best fifty thousand dollars onthe superbowl

and i was with them in the room withintwenty was you bet you made that and i watched the game with him he lost a bet he never changed theexpression on his face my brother billy you can always maintaina cool exterior putting up i'm okay but you're the only way you can do that was a little help from our friends in this case used to take values likesix eight ten a day

he's taken my guests like lifesavers iguess begin they were lifesavers and he thought of the time and that helped write mellow him out cuisines obviously undera lot of tension and only gives you a drink maybe a court have distortion of afterwould be about his nights consumption in one night he was drinking with hisfriends collapse at the bar they said well he's drunk

them sleep it off to the back seat ofthe car they put him in the back seat of carleft in your own to sleep it off sobering leon forts and left him with his headback the body is a magnificent britainengineer with the baghdad's into rosewood has a poison and wants to getrid of it with his head back like this inobviously was unconscious he threw up and they had no place to go and literally drove his own bombing yesfixing the choke to death

so in space of six months are lost to younger brothers at baroda both very sad with this shows that drug abuse is not focused on the poverty-stricken and the people and and buyerconsequences uh... your emotional nepal a book on theelmo tional

abortion regret is that it is is an equal opportunity destroyer here let me let you know five people in theiryou'll find people in the highest ash alonso of uh... of of government in politics in the economy often often abandoned or neglectedchildren after all they're very driven people they're people who work long sixtyseventy eighty hour weeks as i talked about before work all ism

sounds fine except you're neglectingsomebody you're neglecting your spouse you neglecting their children in many ways you neglecting yourself if we are to grow as many cited beings we have to do more than just besingle-mindedly obsess with work or any other addiction which happens in theaddictive process as i said at the beginning of theprogram of on the battlefield medic as a battlefield medic i have to helppeople with the close of in front of me who come into my office

rupali and so i have to help them and try toget them into treatment try to get them into therapy tried it try to help their children getinto day care i do i care by always know that basically i'mfighting a losing battle i'd just don't have enough resources that my disposal also know that i'm also helping people

where the damages for the most partalready done to me we have another role and it's a rulethat most people the drug treatment we're all in fact most social workers reticent to play and that's really was a social andpolitical activist because we have to be thinking about how to read will you be how we changedsocial arrangements

so that we don't have people using these kinds of drugs to search it is did destructive effect on your lights and to me the drug issue as radical implications for the rest ofsociety from top to bottom you're talking about poverty talkingabout a redistribution of income if you're talking about loneliness you talking about creating institutionswhere people can feel a sense of belonging

remember everyone out of every fiveamericans united states movie every year we really are a rootless unconnectedpeople it's really a continuation of the greatmigrations from europe where we came left our families left our communitiescame to america and brought into our go west young menruthlessness i think that's played a tremendous cost i think we are you know as david rees monroe in nineteen sixtyalong the crowd horoscopes later wrote in nineteenseventies the pursuit of loneliness i

think were a lonely people we often find solace we also in in drugs and other ethnic addictions those stories make me think that there'sa lot more involved in solving the drug problem then justsay no as we mentioned reagan uh... would have adjusted lock 'em up from thejail course broyard or send a boot camp like they're talking about here shockincarceration camps um... locking people up action lock 'em upfevers is is really sweeping the country

right now they're talking about locking up drugusers not just dealers but drug users evening casually issue and in fact imean we already have uh... most people probably are aware that we already have are more people walk highest percentageof people of our population lockup then any other country in the world other than south africa and there are some southern states ithink you're for southern states at the higher per capita locker parade in southafrica

you know i'm not surprised so we alreadyare jails already full and that we know in places like new yorkyou spend fifty thousand dollars to put people person in jail and yet we will not spend we will not spend the money necessary tohave good day care systems good family therapy you talk aboutthirty doug i'll talk about just drug treatment oddly people every day who come to meand say i'm ready to give it up

i had enough and you know in this country we have drug treatment but it's a class system there over five thousand treatment centers in united states at aprivate treatment centers the spending that's cost anywhere from five hundredtwo thousand dollars a day now you know the well-heeled we betterhave in major medical wrap-around insurance to be able to put thosetreatment centers

that excludes people on medicaid almostthirty seven million americans who do not have who are working americans whocannot afford how have private health insurance and iare eligible for medicaid they are locked out of our treatmentcenters you're locked out for some you don't have a drug problemeast at least at your own up to four nafta that rose so so will i get people allthe time we want help and i have to tell them

if they have medicaid well on the nafta perch on a waitinglist for two to three months to get you into tip into a long-term residents didyou write orson somebody's using drugs that we are ready to write they'recoming in you put them back on the street if their first of all using needles you got a chance to go to show you whatso many of the greatest diverted our spouse they're gonna give it to ababy-boomer will affect is tremendous we need to be giving people treatment ondemand

in england but we're going to cost saver but the problem in our country is is that why would we pro acts serb-held when i'm not willing to give the poorhelp reagan was always talking about giving the deserving poor well everybody in our society does notseem alex is deserving the

as deserving poor that most people think of addiction and drug use as a self-inflicted wound they have onlythemselves to believe i mean i have a close relative any law who tells me she knows that she herself is that that child of an alcoholic

her father ran away from a large familywhen she was a small child but your conscience of you know jack i just don't buy yourargument about these acts you know you just always crying a blue streak aboutthese addicts i got no sympathy for them everybody arrives has crosses to bear you don't have to use drugs and i think that's the position mostpeople believe that if if you want to

give up trends in just a matter of truegrit it's just a matter of you know pulling up there was an emotionalbootstraps and in britain to it that i think it's a lot and i think it'sa lot more deeper than that we need people writing health and services and leave the country are particularlyhard hearted when it comes to drugs i'll give you an example when asp anywayabout the spent eight point eight

billion dollars in north were on drugs seventy percent of values for lawenforcement only thirty percent of it whisper prevention and treatment and even that a lot of the whole gotobureaucracies or two programs and in fact they were not downto the streets to really help the people there i don't think i will i work in adrug treatment agency and i can tell you

drug treatment is important but i willalso tell you it that but focusing on treatment is in fact closing the barn door after the horse isgone we need to be thinking about effectiveprevention an effective prevention used to belooking at what is the dynamics in the societywhich is producing pete that's so much to stress that peoplefeel the need to use drugs in the first place

weirder things i did not talk about is that we talk about drugs we don't wewere not aware of terrorized people who use drugs on runway mentally ill um... a psychiatrist danielle data isserving a few years ago seven hundred and fifty acts in at seven fifty ice they found aeighty five percent of them we're either schizophrenics borderline schizophrenicsmanic-depressive sporty suffered heavy

depressive disorders they worked or had panic disorders or exoticdisorders so many ways that taking up substanceswas an attempt to self-medicate the symptoms because we don't really have a great forthese people to do you know with their problems when held afterrabin therapy is certainly a rich man's sport in this country you go out and you try to get atherapist

outside of the university of texas wheremike you will get one of the student union uh... the hospital there and you don'tknow if you're not to be able to put it it's fifty sixty two d ninety dollars aprowl into group therapy can just go once aweek ago up to three times a week who can afford it so it's a classic baron treatment centerwe have you're also not looking at the rootcauses of the addiction in the first well that uh... if things from of whatyou're saying that uh... there are

basically three reasons we because the people take drugs ones forexcitement like you say the others for escape and the third is to lessen emotional pain you flip those upside down and say spotlights a societal the total societaldisorder where why do people need excitement or mostall good everybody's lives boring as

there were quite boring as their familylife morning and holiday skipping from why do theyneed to skate and then the paint what causes the painthat people are trying to escape or frank you were a radical u and that's exactly what they would wetalked about before is that in fact drugs in some measure legitimate needs of people have let me talk about this you know youlisten to people like bill bennett say well this is a hedonistic society

this is a pleasure or reacted societythis is a do your own thing society frankly this is a society which in fact has its nose to the grindstone we now have families where dash two b two paychecks everybody's out working everybody is goal oriented it's out you know like the commercialsays word absolutely positively has to

be there overnight this is a production oriented society value work work work i'm really get pleasure actually wedeprives uniform of commodities commodities in the former foes uniforms of things that shock part ofour passover spectator culture and why would passive customers come home deadbeat

ras dragon from a day's work and about the only energy we have left is to put ourselves into the easy chairbuffing up on the hassidic get the remote control and so it was one of the burned to agood mood and take that i did that's pleasure i don't think that'splayer buyerzone with a bear regular daily with some other means to distractourselves

we're not a society that is a littleencourages pleasure i think were in fact the society butstill has a good deal of a puritan ethic or in my sense that i am andres catholicand was always liked most about feeling good he's being captured not really not lifestyle is not doing agood jack it sounds to me like we're talkingabout our strike in the u_s_a_ that we need a lot of social restructuring and social change in oursociety we need a new set on values a new set of socialinstitutions

social relations there it really doescompetitive stress society the social darwinism that's the survival of thefittest were if you don't make it there's really no institutions no safetynet no hell to take care of you it's this individualism gone berserk in amock in our society that's really at the bottom of this drug problem and if wedon't star change in attitude towards values towards work towardseverything as well as our institutions we're not going to really be able todeal with this uh... drug problem begin dealing with the drug problem we need totalk about new drug treatment programs

we meet our programs out there that willhelp addicts get off the street that will help peopledeal with drug problems that to me it sounds like this also involvespsychiatric treatment counseling as well as just something programswriting about the donner whatever education to get people off of uh...drugs will clearly if you were if you see drugs is symptomatic then you look what the problem is and for me the problem is www and it'svery easy to get somebody off the drugs he's been in a five day detox or attenda detox

and nobody is now clear the drugalthough it's really a medical treatments all your medical treatment infact is only doing a symptomatic level when you put them back in an environment an environment where theory and opportunity their environment where they have lots of stress or environmentwhich is not has become really have not been able toaddress a lot of the underlying emotional difficulties they hacked

then you're going to relax they're goingto go back and so you have to begin thinking about this tissue much more holistic kind ofway and much more populistic kind of waythan you find policymakers in washington with very easy sloganeering is about thewar on drugs determined to rebuild the cities itseems to me that the drug cultures are precisely that its whole urban ghettos wholesubcultures where there is nothing to drug useeverywhere you looked until you

eliminate the drugs subcultures you'regoing to have literally millions of people soprano going on here this is thepart problem of the part of the underclass we uh... executed it's at freeze that'sdeveloped in the last eighteen years that used to be from our class perspective you had youknow you had put the ruling class and then yeah the working class and then we have american sociology didlike the concept of a ruling class so they developed a are companies thatthere's a welders there's a new lease

and then there's the middle class andthen math basically all of us a middle-class but the fact is we now havea uh... a group of people who were a lot in going nowhere mate millions of people are going wellwhere were you planning to anything you can really have their life prospects arevery dim and and as a and as a political systemwe've given up on these people i mean the conservatives never you never really um... had much hope forthem edward benfield a a conservative urbanthe organist stover knowledges said

years ago though we should think of thecity as a as a as a as a sandbox basically that's right the city's off let'sunderstand that that basically decadent we have not heard nothing we can do forthese people the hopelessly pathologically degenerateanyway yes he said to kind of cordon off the cities to keep the people and and import toys like a sandbox toys i_v_ drugs and things like this

into the cities keep the people spaced out or occupied and don't let 'em out and that weight you they witnessedinfect the rest of fighting you would have to do anything more about this was and that's the it looks like this iskind of what is happening that was part of his fingers it's not just theconservatives

beginning around in the nineteenseventies with with the juke jimmy carter when he began talking about governmentof limits on government we would have to lower ourexpectations he began saying things like you cannot expect government to solveour problems debbie can a sort of new york liberalism acidophilus fiscal conservative moves on the part ofall the liberals that said whistle we'd love to solve all problemsin the world but

we can't throw money at every problem and so even liberals there's noconsensus today as that once we gave lip service to during the johnsonadministration of the great society to addressing these problems we basically written these people off and that we actually went into more forthe time when they cannot help themselves 'cause we're running shoeswith that no one addresses is a lot of these disco underclass ofpeople

have been rendered technologicallyobsolete their labor is now we don't get because i've looked at my irishgrandfather did when he came from europe in the two of the century was to go down to the docs and in on thewest side of new york and to do it they use the called don tlabor and you always are the irish to do don t aces and he wants to persuade opus lendersbrower newsbon n in his back dubbed himself some kind of a life

today dot shop doesn't exist for people it's been replaced those kind ofmanufacturing hard hard labor jobs and replaced bymachinery who had been sent abroad to cheap labor markets you know i have a core of twenty totwenty five percent of the population we literally had no meaningfulwell-paying work force the only thing they have only prospects than in front of them

is flipping burgers at wendy's which you can you can live on thoseuh... salaries you can live on the salaries and then one of the reasons why we'retalking about drugs and why people use drugs but was elected as a clinic all kind of drugs today in new york city there aresections of new york city that are coming back to life because why because the drug money gets infusing therenaissance

parts of the east new york in queens with the jamaicans and the rest of them the rest of the drug gangs park pouring that money back into thecommunity actually nixon and the republicansfinally got black capitalism but now it's in the form of the drug economyuh... on the other hand his other calls parts of the city that are just uh...destroyed yes where the crime the crack houses thatmakes it impossible

as a living in a habitat an impossible to exclude that drugculture alicia literally live it indicated how can you leave male who has the who has the dollars toleave it i don't want blacks a lot of the blacks that i treat in as a drug counselor are makingdecision to leave and go back south uh... that's about the only thing tosome of them have uh... some of their role is down at the corner is oversoldearlier patterns exactly don't take a look foropportunities now they go back

opportunity to have to live because new york city in the other urbanghettos just are really uninhabitable at thispoint waved we've been talking about a lot ofthings we don't talk about leaving the crime what it's like to live in thesewar zones where people are getting people getting innocent people are doingthe right dot he's getting towards these terra four is that are happeningmini-series teenage death rates are just incredible read several articles in thetimes

about this jack one thing we haven't talked abouthere is the issue of drugs and social control it seems that obviously that wantsuncertain labor force is obsolete technologically the societydoesn't really care about them so dry it's become a method of social controlto keep the underclass doubt dekhi ta supplied a potentially interested forcethe nineteen sixties was precisely in the urban ghettos who had black sporterreturns chicago's people are different racism origins

were a radical political force you don'tsee this anymore the drug culture as rock as hasdestroyed the radical political subculture the makes one think that theymay be people different groups in our society maybe using drugs as instruments ofsocial control we are not the first to bring that up uh... in fact uh... malcolm x_ lacking was a ruler i so i sort take just recently with himsaying that nineteen sixty four

just before his assassinating sixty fivewere you saying that uh... you know with more on the planes it's widely it's bringing the ceilingit's a way for us to be chilled out it's a way for us to be pacified it's a way for our people to bemarket ties i don't know if there's any consciouscobol conspiratorial cleek at top that is sort of crafty enough to divinewho sell pretty malevolent uh... technique of social control but it certainly ready or not it's its

by design it certainly works out thatway and a lot of people are threatened bypeople who say that uh... during urban riots in the sixties and seventies but suddenly there was an enormousinfusion of drugs from the outside to cool off about had to be a something that was planned and controlbut i think it is frank items i don't see it is that i'd think that there's somuch money at stake when it comes to that unjust think back to a circleexample separate or the cop in new york

tried to be an honest cop right there's so much drug money floatingaround into the sixties and seventies bag basically everybody can get boughtoff everybody can get a piece of the action so it may look at the fact that that everyone is approving of it in thatat the top is basically calling the shots thepeople of top quality shots but it really is that there's so muchmoney that almost nobody is immune to do it being brought off in bright

and so it looks like well the wholecommunities getting infested who's there to do the job who's been atthe stop it from coming in the police can be bought he's kind of dollars they're talkingabout a lot of money projected that the facts of the matter are that uh... oneit's been tolerated for several decades every drug use in the ghettos and other parts unitedstates have been tolerated despite the war on drugs that mix n reagan-bushanother right winners of the klan they really haven't done anything

they have heard you like to get the all that but let's talk about this or anow what would you like to know that would you like them to start lockingpeople up that mixing bowl all those the point isthey haven't done the things that were talking about the weather the origin of the drug problem right that it's notreally ghetto life uh... but i'd say you have a differentideology their difference takes their different to have different gender

that privilege to protect they havetheir power to protect there's all ideologies built intoamerica that if you know if you can make it you can makeit on your own even if you growing come up in the worst of circumstances tohard-working ambition you could rise up on your own bootstrapsi mean this is not a culture of it so it looks out for the week is not a culture that you know shortstoo many tears about the poor i mean i'm not surprised are notsurprised i i'm not surprised that they're not looking into arrangements

social arrangements which they see as part of the uh... nature i don't think that uh... don't think that this class suppressionthey think this is life at is their life is with us in thislosers we're sorry but some people have to move started going up it was that ithink it's important to see that really the war on drugs is declared by bush and all the right wing solutions to thedrug problems are simply soon assunto solutions that really count work anddon't work let's take the um...

project of day drive to the source we hear a lotabout columbia cocaine cartel we talked aboutusing u_s_ troops there without the colombian southamerica and destroy drugs at the uh... sourcewhy do you think this is a pseudo solution to it really sort of a smokescreen all over the whole usually my mind you know i would thinkit was a simple solution how do you know that i don't think it's a terrific ideaa lot because of the cuts are those who fought for what they're cutting back on

well actually i don't think it's much of the solutioni think in fact um... its there's a tendency on the part ofamerican culture always look for outside agitators to blame always look for uh... ektu external liesthe problem think of uh... some some bad apples in the battle moodsamerican system is basically a good battle we've got a few bad apples andwe'll get rid of the bad apples we've got a basically good

circa institutional arrangements here so it's easy to blame you know the drugcartel in general noriega and the contras and cocaine production just as we blame the turks nixon blamethe turks in turkey further heroin production or the cambodians and laotians in theties for the golden triangle production

back in the sixties and seventies i think really pitched diversionary because five years from now maybe eventwo years from now we will not be talking about cocaine cocaine will be passe like good old american know-how andtechnology we have now replacing natural products we've synthetic products the markets abroad the drugs of thefuture of going to be synthetic

mandate mating clandestine and secretlaboratories high school chemist i'm going to be able to make money i see it now is of drugs like ice inecstasy and crank these overall synthetic drugs much more powerful in many ways muchmore deadly then the natural products

so it again might might argue means weiqi focusing upon noriega and the carinsurance and the drug cartels the realities what is it about american culture leads us all right to want to use drugs i think there's a very important factorhere and that is that you were talking about that reagan and bush and andyou're right wingers welling jimmy this was a very important for them tokeep this drug thing going as the big

study group and california few years agowhere they police fall over the country they saidhey we don't want to eliminate crime because then we'd be out of a job so we gotta keep enough of this going tokeep i'd just like uh... levi's qualitative one eliminate vice city townthey wouldn't have anything to do they'd be out of a job so you gotta keep itgoing but the people they uh... reagan's inthe bushes of the world date we want to use this so-called war on drugs and wantto stop it raa bush was in charge of interdiction of drugs spent billions ofdollars that during the reagan

administration and drug importation isonly increased but you know what you think they're using the drug war ondrugs too curtail civil liberties of ordinarypeople or maybe just casual users they also are using it as a method of of mucking around and the third world inoticed that uh... the president of columbia planned uh... the american sent uh... different types of military armamentsdown there to help fight against a colombian drug cartels he said hey waita minute

this isn't the type of equipment we needto fight the drug cartels but it's perfect if you want to use it againstthe uh... the it uh... left-winger insurgentguerrillas and the same thing i noticed improved tolevy a one million americans to go down there advisors there down there underthe supposedly a fight drugs but what if they don't they're not fighting the druglords and all thereafter the left-wing guerrillas who are trying to overthrowthe government to what say you know forces are there a lot of agendas andexcuses that they've got to keep this drug war going or something i like aboutalternative use never s leading

questions on the show nafta after i got out of another leadingquestion for you a lot of the liberals and libertarians in response to this right wing war ondrugs the races repressive of our civilliberties and has extended interventionist foreign policy they say had it was just legalizing willget rid of organized crime and the criminalization of drugs we can solvethe present problem withers conserve people in prison the customs you saidearlier fifty thousand dollars a day for

the state to take out what i would justdecriminalize drugs of some people on a destroy themselves okay we can use someof the money from the profits from drugs for rehabilitation programs for otherpeople don't want to get off road rides what's wrong with this libertarianlegalization um... aren't only they also say that the price will go down on drugs and therefore that the the addicts uh...the people who use them won't have to go up uh... on mother's day uh... beat up onthat the uh... ladies that

little old ladies who are getting theirwelfare checks or there or social security checks they won't have to prostitute themselves in order to getmoney because the price will be lower for all the problems are going to besolved by legalization right so i think what yourself withlegalization in on the face of its it's a fairlyattractive in it's a very tightly reasoned article ofof places

uh... i think what you'll do as youprobably have it decreased in property crimes which of course if you have propertiesalways very people understood doing if you haveproperty and and milton friedman and william f_buckley a number of conservatives said put this fluid as a means to do with the drug problembut i'm not talking about the drug from there we were talking about the crimeproblem well that's not properly i mean peopleget mugged on the streets uh... well yes

i feel that's the way myself up if youhave a lot and i think i i think that's i think that's the that's the carter ithink that's the cover story i really think that these uh... from a practical standpoint legalization is a complete mess let me just let me just pose it to you we have laws now in this country everystate that says if you're a bartender

you cannot serve a inebriated orintoxicated person in fact in places like new york you have legal liability which says thefew if you've said that we need a fewsurgeon intoxicated person that did that last week and that person goes out thathas an accident you are responsible for the damages you can be sued now i would ask you if you are typically would it havestate-supported drug

clinics actually state-supported crackhouses and somebody came in in one or two at what point would you tell them thatthey had enough wasn't all that you've had enough he cannot anymore do you know it's like to tell somebodywho's who's who's been using cocaine or crack you've had enough enough to have anymore first though we're going to have to havecops right here

christine restrains person he goes nutsin says i want more you're not going to stop me but let's say that he has and that you give me now was worth thedrugs but two hours worth of drugs for threehours worth of drugs how about the fact that we know that one one single use of cocaine can cause a heart attack as it did for len bias

the basketball star was to who wasdrafted by the boston celtics' died right out one single used cocaine he's a helping hand special now we're learning about cocaine and block it how it interrupts bloodflow to the heart are you going to give people enough drugs to let them kill themselves if they kill themselves which is thatgoing to be responsible who's going to be held responsible when they do that

are you going to allow pregnant women toget drugs enemy state-supported crack houses ordrug gangs cause we know what the effects of on thefetus of drugs we know that a single use of of cocaine can stroke afetus content can break the press center orfor any can bleed to death in the womb will allow pregnant women to have it everyone enjoy going to stop people fromgoing in visibility fourteen sixteen eighteen twenty-one for those people you don't allow linkinga state-supported

crack houses legalized drug dennis reckoning colville go to a black market the black market will still exist for the youth for pregnant women forthose people who don't belong to it to have any more than their they're they're they're day theirrelation i think it's a complete folly

and i think of one u_s_ political people i'm not just the drug kills launch thelunar political hack we should understand that this isbasically has an agenda it's part of the final solution to read underclass the legalization legalization you don't want to keepin under uk a chemical yoke

for the rest of their natural wives and those lives will be much shorter and by the way when you talk about crimewill be good down having grown up as a child of analcoholic i know that the kind of devastation that that a person under the influence can doto children onto love ones around them what do you think these people are going getting high at crack at kent statesecurity crack houses

what do you do when they go on to theirfamilies and loved ones can you imagine what what life is goingto be like driving in cars it's bad enough to fifty thousand peopleget killed on the highways from from drugs what is life going to be like when youknow that the dying guy who was driving along side you in the next lane has justcome out of our out of a crack house i think life will be much more explosive much more dangerous much worse i don'twant to see people have much more accessible hassle-free drugs

i think we just need to deal with rootcauses and legalization doesn't do with wouldcost legalization just use with the symptom they want tribes will give the moredrugs just lead us a while if you want to kill yourself go rightahead none of our business jack criminalization hasn't workedtogether as interesting plus as we talked about that uh... veryfirst of the program a long time ago homo sapien and other animals abusecycle that's uh... active substances

ever since they've been in existence so you have a contradiction here do you not about howyou how are you going to prohibit on one hand criminalized something which seems to be inherent andy human species the desire for

some type of psychoactive experience deep desire i think it human beings have is a desire for for pleasure desire for four belonging a desire for meaning and purpose intheir life

the desire to be connected to otherhuman beings and meaningful way a desired to maybe have and out of mind experience u_s_ toexperience pleasure excitement sure these folks attend school we haveother means for people to to reduce tension his native is meditation as all kinds ofthis this massage this relax ation devices we can be teaching people we can bebuilding into the culture

means other than chemical to help peopledo with their emotional problems i don't think that yes grimacing shehasn't worked at some of the strongest pieces of the link though those who bythe full legalization is the criminalization doesn't work i'm absolutely degree and it doesn'twork but legalization only make things worse chuckling about uh... making adistinction between those drugs that are known to be destructive andharmful tonight i say cocaine in the

latest surveys on cocaine do indicatethey can bring heart attacks about crack we know it's addictive and destructivewhich is a cocaine derivative that we are so it is a society what drugs aredefinitely harmful or destructive but it's ok ok heroin crack et ceteraalcohol so i'll call the serious ugly destructive why several of our listen we're leftwith is not a problem unless you went about as rude legalization is that youcould hillary could might be able to technically legalizeheroin

because a heroin addict could uh... my tear off two or three times a day but a cocaine addict kids were off sixtimes an hour but is this a solution legalizemarijuana legalize even heroin some of these other nutella kothi synthetics that um... may delight destructive in the same way that uh...crack cocaine et cetera are

so you provide some closure of all anxiety reducing experiences for people when we are disappointingprescribed drugs in our society mean doctors prescribe drugs i mean pharmaceutical houses of thebiggest pushes of drugs in the united states i mean we have a commercial it says fornew print i think it says when you haven't got time for the pain

cause marijuana and he'll say moredestructive than alcohol tobacco or valium or some of the chemical drugsor sorrow over the counter one example throughout examples group ofpeople that that i know who who have who use mail marijuana have been truly that they definitely have no memory loss they definitely have short term memoryloss and underscores what i would in fact ithank you webfep you know you're a field trip mclaughlin

sos memory loss they really do theybelieve those issues of sterility uh... they think it may be changed to methey're really cute they pay hypothesize that there may be changingthe genetic structure for marijuana i think the jury is throughout the bodyusing marijuana if i had to rank or order in terms of danger no marijuana doesn'tbreak it in fact when i go out into the high schools i can tell the kids that will drugs areharmful to a drug czar destructive i think i'm doing a disservice

i have to be make distinctions ifthey're going to use drugs for some drugs are a lot worse thanothers there some drugs are a lot more ste destructive than others thinkattorney legalization you're not willing to say the any of the drug laws should be treated as you see it more asa societal problem of getting into the sources that causes appropriatelyclearly feeding a habit you're not really getting to the source and by the way we are interested as radicals

included sizing people in getting an active in being involvedin their community i can tell you from personal experience the drugs is not empowering it cripples people drugs does not build community itdestroys community drugs is not something that we as peoplewho are thinking about pulling broader political change

should be advocating because we wouldreally serves to do is basically market price people incidence tenants accepting road briefings are as the do you think that we should re criminalize a use ofalcohol and make the use of tobacco products illegal listen if i had my druthers

if i had my druthers uh... people wouldn't drink but see eye-to-eye i'd have to make adistinction there obviously people who can integrate alcohol o couple of drinksor so into their life and it does not have destructive negative consequencesleaders say the same thing about taking a couple of uh... pups of marijuana ormaybe a piles of cocaine well i suppose you can in fact there arepeople who use cocaine that way

uh... icon but the profile a person thati laid out to you people who've come from highly dysfunctional families who really never get to feel good exceptwhen they use chemicals those people are very vulnerable i mean if you're talkingabout people in real life have assets the flew back on it i meanjust financial assets but they have supported family loving friends they have a decent job they have a nice place to live

sure big-name factory guests technicallypossible they could have drugs they can integrate into their lives somethingthey might do once in awhile recreational if you have people who have nothing elseto report in their life except drugs as a means to feel good to feel better at least temporarilythat's a power release powerful seductive ideas image and yet is laws now on theway they're using these laws they want to throw all of these people and uh...

both groups the casual user they're notdoing i don't think there's always or i i'm glad to know i'd been are veryobservant all of the policy-making drug making policy in the last few years there has been a right wing agenda basically to use budget use drugs for pretty much lock itup about about a third of the population of because some of these guys at theirway we're talking about for awhile shooting down planes thatthey suspected of carrying

carrying drugs drug smuggling they weretalking about locking up first-time users they weretalking about the death penalty for pushers making no distinction between most usersare oftentimes dealers if the only way to cut down on their overhead they were talking about throwing uh...families abusers out of federal housing but would you might be a a mother raising six kids in yourteenage son uses dot sells drugs tennis court thewhole family get so wrapped up in at a

federal housing that was jack kemp's idea well that didn't go through the congress but first we shouldn't be sort of clumsyabout the way we talk about politics in washington there are people in washington who arefighting a civil libertarian position who are basically trying to seedrugs in a broader context are trying to get treatment for alex are trying to deal with the cinemaprevented basis i think so far they've

been able to fight about this right wingagenda quite yet i civil libertarian in unitsunits its import but some other people pushing these oddnoxious proposals are people like george bush and william bennett who are two of thehighest authorities in this country and the so-called war on drugs so we have tobe very vigilant of what their latest program is going to be we have evenmention this drug testing that there's been a lot of problems about testinganyone who has a federal job

deadbeats when he was attorney generalwas telling employers they should give drug test although ploys anyone who diedin past is fired they should have checks in the locker rooms in the parking lotsince attar so there is very serious attempts to carry out a lot of drugs and we wereon civil liberties in this uh... country by the right wingso far the liberals have more or less kept most of these extremeright wing upright was also liberals for the whole time off is also consideringmovement we shouldn't forget there's also conservatives who have fears of apolka strong big brother state

so there's always tomorrow liberals andand and conservatives and its traditional sense about not wanting tosee the growth of state power as a check up on this unleashed uh... anti-serb libertarians for over but there's also a liberalshave gone along with conservatives on some of their social hour programthis and at the rhyme drugs becomes historical if there's some major murders laurasenate through a drug abuse et cetera itsconsiderable congress to pass an

extremely repulsive drug laws so i i think this is uh... avery dangerous and very tense issue for this uh... country until we do comwith more humane and more rational perspectives on the whole drug problemrisk could easily be something the conservative or even liberal politicianstupid manipulate and very precious what's really interesting thing about itis is it it's clear from watching zero the circus for several years now

is that drugs or a political football i think it's a very uh... it's aware of an issue as a politicianto run on after all who was overtly gonna come out and say i'm for drugs youcan't be stopped on drug users like you couldn't be soft on communism that's soit's a really they really have no they're really do is there's there's no there's no cost the being a drug warrior

but at the same time it's been apolitical football i think that the discussion the way that bitterness ofthe debate had been framed howdy politicize the issue by only talking about a war on drugs would the public discussions but overthe past picks up the war should we go down tocolumbia should we extradite the the leadership we destroy the crops shouldwe lock up kickoff of care users should we being executing po pushersshould we be throwing people in a

she would he had mandatory testing but disc emphasis on tactic has obscured are much more fundamental examination amuch more introspective approach that would look at one of the underlyingassumptions of the war and basically both the democratic andrepublican parties have been were parties in this matter they both have been advocating

a much more stringent attack on drugs then they're looking at a muchmore holistic larger context will understand he really had not been for that and that's precisely what we need andwe're not getting that kind of discussion computer of the major parties